Now, we are all climbers and most of us friends.. having stated that Chris, Josh, and Matt all spread the love of climbing, filming, and writing...for over ten yrs I have talked shop about this red tag issue, my view is there's major work that goes into developing ROUTES, all boulders and solo are open, b/c there isn't the work wrapping, drilling, cleaning, ect.. Its hard labor and your opinion means shit unless u have drilled, and I have, it inspired me to train and send. My true love is untouched boulders on private land, but I go back to Kentucky my home crag several times a yrs.. Now at "the drive-by crag" Chris drilled a new route,not sure when, but i believe it was several yrs ago he drilled it.. Last yr Andrew and I spent sometime climbing the routes by Chris's project. I had all my photo gear, several of my zoom lens gave us a very clear view of this route. I respect Chris and have climb with him several times, this route really looked kind of, well, dumpy.. Now we didn't touch it, but I just got back from the red and folks are working this route.. As a former local to that region, I never was psyed when people would drill, red tag, and head off leaving a tagged route unclimbed. If you are working a route WEEKLY then i can see the tag being valid, but after months of failing I think it's classy to ditch the tag and get new blood on it and get it done.. Kenny Baker did just that down at the Red and I fucking think that reflects a great energy in the sport of climbing and what KY is all about. The reason I've brought up Chris's KY project, is it's covered in chalk, less than a yr ago it didn't have any. Now this isn't speculation, this is what I've seen, folks are working this route. I think the reality is Chris is one of the most famous individuals in rock climbing..Of course others are going to want to snake a route from Chris, it's news worthy, plus if Chris isn't going there working it, it like say here's a route, but you can't climb it..That draws climbers to want to try it.. In my 22 yrs of climbing, some climbers enjoy breaking the rules, other by the book, whatever, different strokes for different folks... I think the red tagging issue is weak at best, in the early 90's development at the Red was drill it, work it, send or maybe not and then open it and let Hume or Litz send it...This continues to this day... Really we are just climbing a rock, not curing cancer. Chris and Big Up are just working doing there thing, but I must wonder about that route at Drive-by?
i was reading nalle's blog just now about the red tagging of FRFM and he mentioned cleaning a boulder for projecting and i had this thought:
For people who say red tagging is fine because it takes effort and money to bolt a line;
As unlikely as it is to happen, would it be acceptable for someone to solo the route? or if the rock allows it, to use trad gear to send it?
Sounds like a bunch of whiny biotches with their ropes in knots. Some needs to remove the tat, climb the route and then piss down on all the posers below.
For those of you who believe that red-tagging is holding back the sport... do you feel that way about patents in the business world? People spend a lot of money on R&D so that they can secure a patent in order to exclusively sell a product or idea. This is the case in healthcare, energy, and high-tech. If the government did not offer patents, half of the stuff that you probably use would not exist. Yeah, some companies want to produce life-saving products to better society, but they have to make a profit in order to do so. SO IS LIFE.
Say that you are employed, working on a new project for your company. You have completed all of the background work, and was just about to go through with the project, and had already obtained funding and poured a lot of money into research. Your salary and bonus depends upon the success of this project. Then, one of your friends that works for a different company steals your idea. You now have nothing, and aren't going to get paid for your efforts. In fact, you get fired because your boss has not seen any results... Is that fair?
How could anyone possibly say that money and first assents have no place in climbing??? Aren't you on the dead point website that is facilitated by advertising? Doesn't deadpoint update its website every time one of these people send a FA? Deadpoint is making money off of you watching these videos. So, if you are on deadpoint, and you feel this way, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE. Everyone is trying to get a piece of the pie. This IS business, it is Chris's JOB. Would you not try to protect your job security? So what if Sharma found a job in something he loves... its still business. Just because some of us do not have to worry about paying the bills with climbing does not mean that we should talk crap about someone that does what all of us wish we could.
Of course there are climbers as strong as Sharma, but honestly, why would you spend a couple of grand, risk sponsors, and do a lot of work so that someone else can make a movie and make the money that you were trying to make. Yeah, climbing is fun, and its about the essence, but it has become a mainstream sport. Deal with it.
How many crags are in the world???? Find another one. And who really cares that Chris Sharma might not be the strongest person in world? He has still taken this sport to a new level so that these new kids can progress the sport even further. If it really isn't about the numbers and getting first assents, then why do all of these younger kids want to get on Chris's projects? It is the people who respect a climber's efforts (Such as Ondra), that understand the essence of climbing, not those that are trying to undermine someone else's efforts.
And by the way, how many people who send second assents are really remembered for it? Maybe if we didn't characterize lines by the first person that sent, then we wouldn't have this problem.
If you really wanted to enjoy the essence of climbing without numbers and first assents... then you wouldn't be on this website.
Say that you are employed, working on a new project for your company. You have completed all of the background work, and was just about to go through with the project, and had already obtained funding and poured a lot of money into research. Your salary and bonus depends upon the success of this project. Then, one of your friends that works for a different company steals your idea. You now have nothing, and aren't going to get paid for your efforts. In fact, you get fired because your boss has not seen any results... Is that fair?
How could anyone possibly say that money and first assents have no place in climbing??? Aren't you on the dead point website that is facilitated by advertising? Doesn't deadpoint update its website every time one of these people send a FA? Deadpoint is making money off of you watching these videos. So, if you are on deadpoint, and you feel this way, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE. Everyone is trying to get a piece of the pie. This IS business, it is Chris's JOB. Would you not try to protect your job security? So what if Sharma found a job in something he loves... its still business. Just because some of us do not have to worry about paying the bills with climbing does not mean that we should talk crap about someone that does what all of us wish we could.
Of course there are climbers as strong as Sharma, but honestly, why would you spend a couple of grand, risk sponsors, and do a lot of work so that someone else can make a movie and make the money that you were trying to make. Yeah, climbing is fun, and its about the essence, but it has become a mainstream sport. Deal with it.
How many crags are in the world???? Find another one. And who really cares that Chris Sharma might not be the strongest person in world? He has still taken this sport to a new level so that these new kids can progress the sport even further. If it really isn't about the numbers and getting first assents, then why do all of these younger kids want to get on Chris's projects? It is the people who respect a climber's efforts (Such as Ondra), that understand the essence of climbing, not those that are trying to undermine someone else's efforts.
And by the way, how many people who send second assents are really remembered for it? Maybe if we didn't characterize lines by the first person that sent, then we wouldn't have this problem.
If you really wanted to enjoy the essence of climbing without numbers and first assents... then you wouldn't be on this website.
Both sides have an argument.
If someone bolts a route they need to have a reasonable amount of time to climb it. If you cant wait, bolt your own. Have you ever been to Terradets? So much rock and only the closest crag has bolts.
Bottom line. Bolting shit is hard and expensive.
If your gonna spray about your project expect someone to come an snake that shit and be a man about it. Punch him in the face and steel his girl friend.
No man can deny you a send or attempt of a line, only the rock can.
Stay away you lazy slackers...find, clean and bolt your own roots!
If you want to try the project you have to contact the maker of the climb! They have to agree and you have to help the ascent forward...drive to the crag, bring nourishment, belay, brush the holds and be positive.....
Forget the "red tag" take the bolt hangers off.....!
20 years from now, red tagging will be like telling someone not to work the crux of a route unless they start over from the dirt, just like the good old days. Restrictions hinder growth of anything. Its a free world and if you red tag a route, the next person comes along and can respect the tag or not. There is no right or wrong answer to this issue, it is up to the individual. My guess is most people will respect a red tag for a weekend or two, then its a free for all.
I just have to say that I love this statement. This is dead on. You seem to understand what this thing is about. Not about the money, or the fame but the personal so accomplishment for one's self and the people you share it with. This is what some pro's claim.....but do not live by.
I just stumbled a pond this article/discussion. It is always been a fairly large debate where I grew up climbing in KY. I started equiping routes in the RRG back in 2004, I was super excited and enthusiast about developing a new cliff I had stumbled a pond in the back hills of no mans land. I borrowed a friends drill got some advice, and like a new found gumby going for his first sport lead, punted all over the first route I ever tried to bolt. As time went on I got a little better at finding new routes and placing bolts in better fashion.
As someone that has established a number of routes, I can see where Chris is coming from, there is a ton of work that goes into development. I feel that if the person that develops the route/routes is actively trying them, then the community should respect said routes. However I do not agree with leaving a route redtagged for a long amound of time without trying the route.
I do not agree with projects that someone else bolted and then someone else putting a redtag on it. It is then an open project for the whole IMO. The only time I think it might be acceptable is if the equiper was paid for his time, and equipment usage for said route. I would think that it would be more motivating to the people trying an open project if there were more than one person trying it for a video. Its like, whos going to win the game.
I love the red tag idea! I can go the most obscure climbing areas and find the freshest routes! Most of the time they have little or no chalk on them and you never have to wait to get on 'em. I climb these routes all the time! I don't go around sprayin' it to all the mags, websites, or sponsors. I do it and I'm on the the next one. My partners and I are the only ones who ever know it.
So the next time you debate the whole "reserved rock" thing... carry on if you must... but the F.A. has already been done. Go ahead and get the F.P.A. (first published ascent) you can have it and all it's glory. But that guy chillin' in the background snickering when you announce your success... that's me... yeah I know it's a sweet route!
I love the red tag idea! I can go the most obscure climbing areas and find the freshest routes! Most of the time they have little or no chalk on them and you never have to wait to get on 'em. I climb these routes all the time! I don't go around sprayin' it to all the mags, websites, or sponsors. I do it and I'm on the the next one. My partners and I are the only ones who ever know it.
So the next time you debate the whole "reserved rock" thing... carry on if you must... but the F.A. has already been done. Go ahead and get the F.P.A. (first published ascent) you can have it and all it's glory. But that guy chillin' in the background snickering when you announce your success... that's me... yeah I know it's a sweet route!
I love the red tag idea! I can go the most obscure climbing areas and find the freshest routes! Most of the time they have little or no chalk on them and you never have to wait to get on 'em. I climb these routes all the time! I don't go around sprayin' it to all the mags, websites, or sponsors. I do it and I'm on the the next one. My partners and I are the only ones who ever know it.
So the next time you debate the whole "reserved rock" thing... carry on if you must... but the F.A. has already been done. Go ahead and get the F.P.A. (first published ascent) you can have it and all it's glory. But that guy chillin' in the background snickering when you announce your success... that's me... yeah I know it's a sweet route!
The pro climbing community has always been a bunch of 7th grade girls. I can think back to a bolt smashing event in old kentuk to ram home the point!
Kinder takes draws.....other man responds by smashing, just like the play ground.
This is just another slip in the wrong direection where competition over shadow's this thing that some of us hold in the highest regard, never ask for a dime, and never want to EVER be on film. It is the folks who put in 8-10 days doing construction and still find time to pull down double digit boulder problems.
Nobody tells you it's obligatory to yield your seat in the bus to a handicapped person, or to hold the door open for someone right behind you. We do it anyways. There is no standard for ethics, and so it's hardly different for something as small as red-tagging. Now just to be clear; for the most part i disagree with redtagging, as even after someone might go through all the trouble to find, clean, and unlock a line, the rock is still not his, it's everybody's. Having said that, just to avoid drama and since most of us are climbing purely for the experience and not the glory, we should stay off of it just for respect to that person's request. If you really want to climb the route, cool, climb it, just don't claim the f/a. Let the one who red tagged the line get the glory which might be all he's looking for. The real reason why you're climbing it is not so others know, but rather just to challenge and progress yourself.
FM
Colorado.
Even though most of us would admit that Adam Ondra could send most of the routes that Chris bolts, he still has utmost respect for the bolt-ee. I don't think Adam Ondra would venture to FA any of Chrises masterpieces. That's true character, when we all know Adam can do it, but respects the sport and all the hardwork. Hats of to the 15 yr old for learning something earlier on that most of us should get.
You definitely have to respect the people that take the time and spend the money to put up a route, but at what point is it decided that someone else can hop on it if you haven't done it? There's never going to be an agreed upon opinion on this and we all have to accept that.
As for my opinion, because most routes are in areas that everyone has equal access to I think we should be judging the climber trying to FA the route before the person who bolted it more than the person who spent the time bolting. There's more to be said about someone who respects the bolter and gives them their fair shot and because of all the controversy about the requests of bolter, I'm staying on the fence about asking this in the first place.
In this case though, Nalle chose to respect Sharma's request and not climb the route. Two HUGE thumbs up to him for respecting that request. But what about Sharma asking him to stay off it. Normally, as I said above, I'd be fine with it...
But in this case, there's a definite downside to Sharma asking Nalle to stay off. The second Sharma let someone else try the route he should open it to everyone. If the FA is so important to Sharma then why would he let his friends Dani and Dave climb it and not Nalle... That's BS! You want to keep a route closed, do so, but don't play favorites. This is the first time I've lost a lot of respect for Sharma and I hope he learns something from this.
As for Nalle, wow, major respect. Not only did you avoid the route after being asked, but you did this and watched Chris let his friends climb it after telling you no. This says a lot about your character. I hope for many future sends of things much tougher than FRFM in your future.
Some thoughts and ironies:
1) I'm happy to finally see professional climbers addressing issues critical to the broader culture of the sport.
2) Nalle wouldn't know about the route without the movie, nor would he want to climb it if it weren't so popular. In other words, the fact that it's Sharma's project makes the route a bigger goal for others.
3) It's funny that Chris is making an argument about all the time and effort he put into this route since previous movies - Rampage, King Lines, the Dosage where he rolls through Arkansas and does Dreamcatcher, etc. - heavily feature Chris sending projects that other people identified. He isn't doing all the ground work, other people are. Obviously, in this case, he is doing the grunt work, but he seems to have had it both ways.
4) It seems like Nalle should have communicated more. Maybe if he had called Chris rather than simply posting his goals on his site. Maybe if he had talked to Chris while he was there. It seems a bit passive-aggressive to post what you're going to do and then come back and complain about it.
5) Both Nalle and Chris seem like cool dudes. I sympathize with both of their positions. I think Chris should have time to send his route. I think he should also be a bit more transparent about past instances where he benefited from exactly the type of situation that Nalle was trying to swoop in on. I think Nalle has a great blog and is a great ambassador for the sport. I don't think he has a right to someone else's project. I think he could have communicated better.
6) Finally, an FA isn't a sort of tournament. The idea being floated by some that an FA doesn't mean anything unless other people are shot down is probably a newer phenomenon caused by some areas getting climbed out and only long standing projects being left. Originally an FA simply meant you had the vision to see the line and you did it.
7) It's sad that there is all this discussion about a route no one has even climbed yet while bigger issues - access, eco-friendliness, children in climbing - issues that concern the sustainability of climbing get little debate.
I like how the RRR guide book puts it since the climbing community has long forgotten their terminology. They credit the "equipper" and then the "first ascensioninst".
I thought it was F.A. = first ascent... the dude who stood in aiders sweating balls that his hook was going to pop him in the teeth and send him for the big one.
F.F.A... NOT first female ascent... please bitches. Quit trying to change acronyms around for your pleasure. They're not ribbed. It's just climbing. It's First Free Ascent, i.e. the dude who doesn't have a job and strolled over and sent the route the bolter F.A.'d.
Also... these pro climbers who "bolt"? Adding a link up at a crag does not make you a route developer. I rarely hear of pros finding their own cliffs of caves. They claim they do, but in reality they've just stolen someone elses idea like little parasites sucking off the working person's blood.
Sorry about the bitches comment. If it makes you all feel better... I'm a girl.
Since when did the climbing community become a bunch of 7th grade girls? Gossip gossip gossip.
People think that red-tagging inhibits progress, but in reality it is very likely that it increases the number of routes put up. If someone puts in the effort to bolt a line and it's immediately a free for all, then there is little incentive for the equipper to dedicate much time to bolting several routes at the same time. They are more likely to bolt one route and work on that route exclusively until they send. Because of red tagging, the people who put in the effort to equip a route can bolt many lines and red tag a few, and then allow other people to explore new lines that weren't previously available. This seems to be the case in the Chris/Nalle issue, where Chris has bolted a many lines and he wants to get the first ascent of a route that he thinks is particularly special for him. There are likely other rad lines that Chris bolted that are open for anyone to climb, thanks to the hard work of Chris and others. So, the bottom line is that in sport climbing, red-tagging might actually promote development of new cutting edge climbs.
Like Chris said, people want FA's but they don't often take the time to bolt the project. And if the person who bolts the line doesn't mind his friends working on the route and potentially scooping them, then so be it. I can understand the feeling of wanting to get the FA on my project but being psyched if one of my good buddies beats me to it.
Those of you recriminating Chris for this are like naive children who just realized that Santa Claus isn't real.
its a little crazy that sharma wont let people try his routes. the movie first ascent with trotter and the other climber
didier or w.e
they were both trying for the fa at the same time. thats what its all about the comp will make people send faster. therefore more progression since thats what everyone claims to want
Chris bolts approx 15 lines in the 9a to 9b+ range, they are 'open' but wants to keep one for himself - seems fair?
http://englishdailaojeda.blogspot.com/2010/03/first-respect-first-minute...
"Actually I have about 15 projects in Catalunya in the range of 9a to 9b+ or harder that are all open projects and all 5 stars."
"I pointed him in the direction of several other futuristic projects that I bolted that I thought he would like and it seemed like it was all good."
point two:
"The lesson here is that if you want to keep your project, don't put it in the next BigUp release"
http://nalle-hukkataival.blogspot.com/2010/03/finland-update.html
True but the outcome of this is that projects are kept secret and the opportunity watch someone work a climb via the climbing media lost.
I am agree....they should just fight to see who gets to try to get the first ascent. This is just the old man (sharma) scared of the next generation.
This makes me so very sad and angry in the same breath. I've had an injury (non climbing) and so I have not been able to meditate for a while now so I thought I'd jerk around on the internet for a bit. I agree that it is not a first ascent if you will not let other try. That being said who cares about first ascents unless you are insecure or gettin paid. Either of these two things have no place in this world. The sport (as people as calling it) is heading in the wrong direction. I am not some old schooler wishing for the days of old, but was lucky enough to be shown the correct way to behave. I've been away from the egocentric world of hard climbing for a bit and at times I miss it so bad I can taste it.
First, its great that so many climbers are weighing in on the subject.
I don't think anyone will argue that all climbs are for anyone up to the challenge to enjoy and I think that every person who bolts a route or susses out a sick new trad line has this in mind when they do so.
That being said, to some people, finding new lines and putting the work into getting them in shape so that others can eventually enjoy them, is exactly what drives them to climb at all.
Also, it should be noted that bolting, even on rappell sucks. It is not fun, it is work. The end result is fun and makes the work worthwhile, but the process is not that enjoyable. For most climbers, the bolts are taken for granted. They don't even think to wonder who the guy is that spent his hard earned money on stainless steel hangers so the route wouldn't rust away into oblivion. Or that he maybe epiced putting in the anchors and subsequently, this 5 bolt route took a day and a half to equip, but he was nice enough to put fixed chains on it so you wouldn't have to try to clean this massively overhanging route. also that he spent a bunch of money on stainless chain and quick links.
We all have heard the line that goes, "money doesn't grow on trees." Climbing is not an exception.
Leave the first accents for those who take the time to do the unpleasant part of the job is they choose to reserve it for themselves, after all, the concensus for those who are against the redtag say, "the first accent doesn't matter." if this is the case, leave it for those who want it and pay the price. If this seems unfair to you, go buy a drill and bolt your own project and let someone else get the FA, I'm sure you'll feel differently.
- Brian S., Fayetteville, AR
"My opinion never came into question until July 2008 when I was approached by someone I respect and have the utmost admiration for, Chris Sharma" Whom you then proceed to slander and publish private conversations with...yeah buddy that's some real admiration there. You'll go far in the climbing media world stabbing people in the back I'm sure... You write: "He has a multitude of projects from China to Kentucky. Some he bolted, other were bolted at the hands of others. So why are all of these projects being red-tagged?" Please watch this video where he explicitly states that the routes he bolted in China but did not send are open projects: http://www.vimeo.com/6540226 "Some of these climbers simply lack the financial freedom and support from their sponsors to jet set with a film crew around the world the way Chris does, and when they do . . . they are met by the tattered colored webbing we all call the red tag." They can simply bolt their own project...like Chris did. Or try to repeat the many cutting-edge routes Chris has already bolted and sent, many of which have not seen second ascents. Either way, it's ridiculous to assume that the progression of the sport rises or falls based on whether Chris's projects are open or closed. Adam Ondra is bolting now, what's to stop anyone else?
EDITOR's NOTE: At what point do I flame on Chris or toss him under the bus? We raised some questions for you to voice your opinion. Obviously, we saw and agreed with Chris and removed the bounty on Jumbo Love. Thanks for adding in your two cents, but please be clear that we are not pointing a direct finger at anyone. We simple are opening a window for discussion. BTW. I totally agree with your parting words.
People think that red-tagging inhibits progress, but in reality it is very likely that it increases the number of routes put up. If someone puts in the effort to bolt a line and it's immediately a free for all, then there is little incentive for the equipper to dedicate much time to bolting several routes at the same time. They are more likely to bolt one route and work on that route exclusively until they send. Because of red tagging, the people who put in the effort to equip a route can bolt many lines and red tag a few, and then allow other people to explore new lines that weren't previously available. This seems to be the case in the Chris/Nalle issue, where Chris has bolted a many lines and he wants to get the first ascent of a route that he thinks is particularly special for him. There are likely other rad lines that Chris bolted that are open for anyone to climb, thanks to the hard work of Chris and others. So, the bottom line is that in sport climbing, red-tagging might actually promote development of new cutting edge climbs.
just climb the damn thing if you want. whats gonna happen... a fist fight? NO! climbers are pussies!!!!!!
Let's stop and think a moment about other "significant" news that has occured from red tagging. Let's look at just how professional, " professional," climbers really are. Not so long ago there was a contraversy regarding a line Andy Raether put up in Rifle Colorado that Dave Graham sunsequently stole and named Girl Talk, Rock and Ice thought it was big shit, so did Andrew Bisharat, an instigator of the problem. Dave, along with Andys project, also stole my sleeping bag, but thats another story all together, fuuuy professional my left butt cheek. These are the people we are supposed to have admiration for, poster boys, really? Let's look at DPMs other poster boy of the moment Joe Kinder, the other voice behind stealing Andys route, holding his Bosh and his words like he has something to hide... well he does, he is full of bullshit and he isn't equiping routes for you and I to climb, thats a flatt out lie, invite Andy to climb your routes if your so open to people climbing your " Backyard project." And on top of that for some reason, maybe because he was at the height of controversy himself for bashing Andy with a fear of losing his "professional status," and mind you long before he had the vision to bolt something himself, he was dogging Andy for wanting to climb something that Andy was more than capable of doing first and putting in the hard work, saying it wasn't for the FA but the progression of the sport, common this is the lame attitude that will make progression stop cold in it's tracks. Only after Joe started catching flack did he pick up a drill, I will tell you Andy was bolting lines and establishing cliffs well before "professional" Joe Kid was growing the balls to stand in Aiders or put in the work. But there was Andy being polorized by the "to cool for school club of Kinder and Graham and Bisharat, I was there I shared belay time and believe me I'm in the circle of talk and personaly know these people all of them and you can't believe everything you read. The climbing community is small, if Chris does not want people climbing his route than have some continuity about the thing. Dani should not be climbing on the route if Nalle shouldn't, that is a contridiction and in the "real" world competition is what drives progression, suck it up, camp at the base throw some punches and be professional. In competitive atmospheres like climbing people are always going to look to improve their image and status, I say bring it on, competition is healthy and may darwinism proove correct it is survival of the fittest, worst that happens is you all have to work for a living. It erks me more than anything to see the total contradictory nature of these athletes, they all could use a real job and some real world know how... also "Climbing" is now spelled Adam Ondra.
In regard to Jumbo Love, didn't Chris re-bolt the route after it was gifted to him from Randy Levitt? If so, that would seem to give him some measurement of ownership over the route, no?
EDITOR's RESPONSE: If you agree with the "red tag" then, yes. I understand he rebolted the upper portion of the route. To some, that would be enough to warrant "possession"
"even if i can't climb this, i wanted to plant the seed for somebody in the future to come in the future to inspire us all." Tommy Caldwell on Mescalito. Spoken like a true climber...
I think its pretty selfish...sharma has established himself as the "king" and people want to test themselves on his work. its called competition, if people are getting close to sending, well shit chris you better get on your "A" game and get it first. blah blah blah i did all the work....this is life and sometimes you break your back and miss the glory, buuuuuut say nalle sent and said it was harder than .15b? then chris gets the glory for bolting it
man up and let others try, fuck i lost lots of respect too
There is a lot of talent in the world that we will never hear about. Why? Not everyone has the resources to travel, gain media exposure or simply they just don't know the right people and are not fortunate enough to run into them.
There is no doubt that some people are given opportunities that others are not, that is true in any facet of life. "May the best man win" is a load of crap, its more like "The man with a good amount of talent and the correct contacts WILL win". Life is certainly a game of who you know
The unfortunate thing that seems to have happened here is that certain parties in our industry are preventing others from having those opportunities.
Lets face it, business is business. I think its important to remember that Sharma is a business man, he makes money climbing and is going to continue to pursue climbing as a life style and a very good source of income. High profile videos with him getting FA's on the most stunning lines sells.
perhaps the concept of a redtag is ill founded: if you're not brutal enough to climb a route before every one else, then you don't deserve to claim the route's FA, and the glory that goes with it.
a parallel can be drawn from this to a great business idea: take person (A) who is naturally very intelligent. he formulates a great plan for a product that will revolutionize the way coffee is brewed. under this new method, coffee will taste better, become cheaper, and become easier to get. So (A) builds the product in his idea. However (A), while intelligent and naturally gifted, is uneducated. He does not know how to create a business that would protect his newly created product. Nonetheless, (A) takes his product to his neighborhood coffee shop to receive their input. A representative from Starbucks happens to be there, and notes the new product. A month later, every Starbucks in the world is using (A)’s product, and (A) receives no credit for it.
Person (A)'s original formulation of his idea represents ‘the vision,’ behind bolting and cleaning a route. His lack of education serves as a parallel to the abilities of a climber: he is unable to manifest his vision because he doesn’t possess the necessary means to. His sharing the product is similar to how routes—at least those being talked about in this article—have been shared by climbers (such as chris sharma) in climbing media. The Starbucks rep is some one who happens to be paying attention (after all, its not that hard to—these routes are on videos, on websites, etc., with their redtagger talking about them). As some one who is able, the Starbucks rep puts the idea into action—just as a strong enough climber would otherwise claim the FA of a retagged route.
This last idea seems to be more representative of a dog-eat-dog world. Just because that is the way things are in some fields does not mean that they are right. And this is where one could think of good counterexamples to the last parallel—like copyrights, patents, or just respect and common decency.
But maybe there is a middle ground in all of it, lying in time constraints. Putting a limit on the time the creator has to complete a route could be useful. After all, it would accommodate both, the creator of the route, and other able climbers who might be able to send the route. This definitely would have its flaws, but it doesn’t seem to work very well at either extreme.
At no point was my intention to point any finger towards Big Up, but in reading this I can see how it was interpreted as such. What I was trying to get at is, considering the time and money invested in a film project of the magnitude of a Big Up production, there is more at stake, and more people's opinions and ultimately more pressure involved. Ultimately we agreed to take the bounty off the route not because Chris asked us to, but because it was the right decision considering all the parties involved.
I see both sides, on one hand you have the person doing all the work to establish the line. On the other hand you have the person wanting the FA.
My opinion is that the person cleaning it should get the glory for establishing the route and it should be open to all as long as that person isn't there at the actual climb. If they want some compensation for their hard work maybe they should leave a tip jar at the bottom of the climb.
If someone wanted to hop on it with the red tag and finish it without anyone knowing and not mention it, would it really matter?
This reminds me of kids when they have a toy sitting in the corner and their friend comes over and starts playing with it. Then the kid who ownes it gets jealous and wants it back so he can play with it. If people don't alter/destroy anything on the route being established then the (kid) who owns the route should share.
I've found some new boulder problems that I couldn't do but let friends get the FA. I felt great because I FOUND the problem. FA is just a word, when someone sends a route or problem the 1st time on it they just FA'd it no matter who did it before.
John F. - AZ
as if chris sharma has not eperienced enough glory?! chris sharma has completed the FA's of SO many hard routes. up to this point i believed that it was because he had achieved a level of ability that no one else could keep up with.
now that i know the background info on all of these 'spectacular routes,' it makes me lose A LOT of respect for him--not as a climber (obviously he's very talented), but rather as a person...
i used to look up to him as some one who's outlook on climbing transcended the 'glory' found in FA's and numbers. i thought he was at it just to have fun.
he's only human, so im sure that things like this cross his mind. however i never thought that he was actually _driven_ by such factors to a significant extent..
it would be AWESOME to see some of these other climbers have a shot at the spotlight, as they are also extremely talented at what they do.
man, so much for bein a chill dude.
I, and presumably many others, could write a novel on red tagging but no one would read it and it would be total BS when you get right down to it anyway. so in short; I think red tagging is fine for something you've cleaned and bolted - but for a period of time, and one that isn't over only after you've sent the route. yes; you deserve a window of oppertunity but others also deserve attempts on the route. so when do other people finally get a shot at it? that's a tricky question to answer, probably impossible. i would personally say once you move on; to another mountain, another project.. whatever, you lose your tag. even that, i feel, is too generous.
for chris sharma red tagging a route bolted by someone else: that's entirely absurd. considering the film makers, i understand the cost of filming and such, but that's just unfortunate if you don't get the movie done before someone else sends. you don't have a first ascent on film, boo hoo. but you still have the biggest climber sending the biggest route. if movie makers want a first ascent to sell then they should film climbs, not climbers. with this 'let sharma tag any climb he wants' attitude, it seems climbing is adopting the hollywood movie star ways of 'save the biggest roles for the biggest names', instead of just allowing the best to do what they can.
(personally i don't give a shit about the films; it's climbing being man-handled by business and while it's certainly not all bad, i could do without it)
from the article;
"Chris, who makes large endorsements from various companies, has the opportunity to travel anywhere in the world to pursue the progression of the sport. He has a multitude of projects from China to Kentucky. Some he bolted, other were bolted at the hands of others."
if anyone shouldn't be red tagging routes it's the man who has access to any route or problem in the world. why not let the locals work your projects? especially after you've moved on to another one.. and maybe chris is red tagging under the pressure of filmer makers, in which case i was wrong; if anyone shouldn't be red tagging routes it's the men hanging from ropes, holding the cameras.
and quoting chris; "he did all the work to get it ready, has shared with the world his vision of the next level in trad, so now I come and want to snag it and the glory from him."
you didn't do all the work in getting jumbo love ready, why do you get to snag the glory from anyone else?
maybe it is mostly pressure from the film makers; if chris isn't getting these amazing first ascents then they've lost their star. without the stars the films don't sell as well.
where is the fun in having a project all to yourself? where is the friendly competition? what happened to climbing with your friends or even strangers and pushing each other to the limits? what happened to just being awed by an amazing send?
"The Earth does not belong to us. We belong to the Earth."
-Chief Seattle
I don't care if you paint a giant mural on the rock and then piss on it; it's not your rock. Think of it from a non-climber's perspective: You don't want to let anyone get to the top of the rock before you? How childish!
Yes the argument could be made that you put a lot of time into equipping the route and whatnot, but how often in our daily lives do we put a ton of effort into something and it doesn't work out. Think about that route that you tried for the month you were at Rifle and never did. That cost money and time. At least you still get to try the route you equipped even if you didn't get to the top first.
I also find it hilarious that all this has come about from an argument about a route at possibly the worst cliff I've ever been to. Margalef is choss. I mean some people call Maple choss and Margalef is like a boring chossier version of Maple. Find something interesting to climb on ;)
Do I need to say anymore?
I have put up over 150 sport routes and I understand the work that goes into it. I have never red taged a project as I feel that the reason to put up routes is to climb them...for everyone to climb them, not just me. Me doing the first ascent means nothing. My experience on the route doesn't change if I do it first or 50th. I put up routes because I enjoy doing it, I enjoy the process. The actual first ascent is meaningless. It's all about creating the route and then seeing people enjoy it...adding to the climbing in the community. But I'm not a top climber...
If top climbers feel the need to develope new routes and then not let anyone on them because of sponsorship and such...well...I think that just holds back that climber ability to improve and the sport. If someone can't handle a bit of competition to send a new route then they don't deserve to be considered one of the best climbers in the world. How lame is it to be considered to be the best only because you don't let others on your projects. Who cares how much work you put into developing the route. Once the route is up you should welcome the competition and show them your the best because you can send it faster then them and get the F.A. If you can't then maybe you aren't the best after all.
Let's stop all this red tagging and holding back the sport. Opening routes means more competition and bigger, badder, stronger top climbers.
Note: This is just my opinion, of course, and I still respect that there are others with different views on red tags. I definitly stay off of their red tags but I don't agree with them in the slightest. I'm getting old and crusty now anyway so I probably wouldn't be able to steal their glory anyway.
With regards to Chris allowing Dani to attempt the project,
It it possible that Dani has helped Chris significantly in attempting and setting up the project and therfore has some kind of right to it too...
I have no idea though, Nalle may have done absolutely nothing and therefore Chris feels this is taking advantage of his effort...
Just a thought...
Fantastic article, this is the kind of stuff that Climbing & Rock and Ice can't even do a good job on any more, good on you and more articles of this caliber and fewer of the poorly written travelogues / comp reports will do DPM well!
This whole issue brings up an interesting (to me) point: While I love the great footage of great routes, it's a little odd and a bit of a new thing in the climbing world to have such high production value (and thus high dollar) filming and to have promotion of routes and hyping of things before they occur. The evolution of our sport, right or wrong, but it seems clear that the folks involved probably wouldn't be dragged through this / dragging each other through this without the monetary concerns.
I think there should be a time limit, if you can't send your project in at least a year it should be game for everyone to try. Just because someone puts a lot of work into a project doesn't make them owners of the crag, it belongs to everyone.
I, and presumably many others, could write a novel on red tagging but no one would read it and it would be total BS when you get right down to it anyway. so in short; I think red tagging is fine for something you've cleaned and bolted - but for a period of time, and one that isn't over only after you've sent the route. yes; you deserve a window of oppertunity but others also deserve attempts on the route. so when do other people finally get a shot at it? that's a tricky question to answer, probably impossible. i would personally say once you move on; to another mountain, another project.. whatever, you lose your tag. even that, i feel, is too generous.
for chris sharma red tagging a route bolted by someone else: that's entirely absurd. considering the film makers, i understand the cost of filming and such, but that's just unfortunate if you don't get the movie done before someone else sends. you don't have a first ascent on film, boo hoo. but you still have the biggest climber sending the biggest route. if movie makers want a first ascent to sell then they should film climbs, not climbers. with this 'let sharma tag any climb he wants' attitude, it seems climbing is adopting the hollywood movie star ways of 'save the biggest roles for the biggest names', instead of just allowing the best to do what they can.
(personally i don't give a shit about the films; it's climbing being man-handled by business and while it's certainly not all bad, i could do without it)
from the article;
"Chris, who makes large endorsements from various companies, has the opportunity to travel anywhere in the world to pursue the progression of the sport. He has a multitude of projects from China to Kentucky. Some he bolted, other were bolted at the hands of others."
if anyone shouldn't be red tagging routes it's the man who has access to any route or problem in the world. why not let the locals work your projects? especially after you've moved on to another one.. and maybe chris is red tagging under the pressure of filmer makers, in which case i was wrong; if anyone shouldn't be red tagging routes it's the men hanging from ropes, holding the cameras.
and quoting chris; "he did all the work to get it ready, has shared with the world his vision of the next level in trad, so now I come and want to snag it and the glory from him."
you didn't do all the work in getting jumbo love ready, why do you get to snag the glory from anyone else?
maybe it is mostly pressure from the film makers; if chris isn't getting these amazing first ascents then they've lost their star. without the stars the films don't sell as well.
where is the fun in having a project all to yourself? where is the friendly competition? what happened to climbing with your friends or even strangers and pushing each other to the limits? what happened to just being awed by an amazing send?
- christopher marten
I agree with both sides on this topic. Bolting a route that you want to try is hard, and you should be given a chance to get the FA. BUT, it shouldn't be closed off to the world forever.
The troubling thing about this article for me was that Chris wasn't fully and accurately quoted. Mr. Stark took the most seemingly aggressive excerpt from Chris' blog entry. If you read the whole thing, it certainly seems to clear itself up. I also think it's a bit unfair to put this kind of pressure on Chris. It's already been said that he has pressures from sponsors, and the media... why put any more on him? (especially in a negative way.) Given that nobody on this board knows the real time frame in which this project has come about, nobody should be blabbing about it.
Red tagging will most likely remain an un-resolved issue. That is, unless a world climbing police force should ever come about. People are going to bolt routes, and want the FA's. People are also going to look at a red tag, and be bummed because they really want to try that line.
So, in order to keep things civil: let's leave the practice of red-tagging to the crags, and keep it off the message boards.
-SeClimberMike
...than only climbing a route. I think all the lines Chris bolted, he can, if he wants so, red tag them, because, bolting a line is something very different than only climbing it. You have to put in so much effort, to find it, bolt it, and clean it, long before you can only think about climbing it. So I think it was his right to red tag FRFM and also all the other routes he setted. Nalle can also find and bolt his own lines, so he can red tag them. In my opinion if someone, who ever it´d be, can red tag his own "self-bolted" projects. Jumbo Love is something different, because Chris didn´t bolt the line for himself, although I think he was the first, really to try it and to work on it. Also Josh paid so much money to film him every time...so it´s understanable to red tag it...in that one special case. But I also think a climber shouldn´d red tag every route he sets...only those, he is really wanted to do, because it really means something special to him...
You must be logged in to post comments. Please login or create an account.
